Parenting Without a Manual
with Karen Murphy
I'm Karen, the poster child for the concept that there's no one right way to be a parent. I went from stay-at-home attachment-parenting mom of four to being the non-custodial parent, working as a professional writer and channel-psychic. Let's talk about throwing away the parenting manual and exploding the myths and mystique of motherhood!
Check out Karen's Work It, Mom! profile and read her blog, Juxtapositioning.
Show of hands if any of this sounds familiar:
- You walk on the sidewalk, not on people’s lawns, unless it’s someone you know well and you’re spending the afternoon there.
- You let people cut in front of you in the 10-or-less grocery line, but you try to burn holes in the back of their head the whole time they’re in front of you.
- Soup is lukewarm at the restaurant? Steak cooked a little more than the medium-rare you asked for? You eat it but you refuse to enjoy it.
- You won’t call anyone after 9 pm if you don’t know them well enough.
- You have an entire conversation with someone who stopped you on the street to ask directions, even though they creep you out a little, because you’re too nice to look the other way, keep walking, and ignore them.
Did your mother raise you to be nice? Mine did. In my mom’s world, nice trumped everything. if you couldn’t be smart, at least you could be nice. Good girls were seen and not heard, and if you were a teeny bit dramatic (aren’t all nine-year olds?) you got called “Sarah Bernhardt” and were shushed a lot.
That didn’t work for me, and I’m unlearning the niceness thing. And I’m teaching my daughter to speak out about what she wants and feels. I am so breaking this chain, the one that I can trace back to before my mom’s mom.
Yesterday I read a wonderful online chat with Rachel Simmons, who wrote The Curse of the Good Girl: Raising Authentic Girls with Courage and Confidence. Simmons says that girls in our culture are taught early on to be nice all the time, leading them to repress some of their most powerful emotions which in turn deprives them of the skills to express those feelings. Girls in groups have a reputation of being mean-spirited, sneaky. But if they don’t have any other way of expressing normal emotions, what else are they going to do?
Mad Men is wonderful social commentary, reflecting not just on the early 1960’s but on today as well — the women of Mad Men live in a world we thought we left behind, but the nice-girl culture is still with us. How many of you raised your hands earlier? As a group, we women have trouble saying what we want. And it’s up to us to teach our daughters differently. How? By unlearning what it is to be nice. By crossing the line into not-nice territory, and by doing it in front of our daughters. And by encouraging them to do the same.
It boils down to this: what kind of women do we want our daughters to see when they look at us? Someone who sacrificed her feelings and dreams? Or someone who cares enough about herself and those around her to give herself what she needs? We think there is selfishness in the second choice, and to that I say YES. Be selfish. Know your Self. Let your feelings show. Make your desires known. And teach your daughter to do the same.
There’s a fine line between standing up and getting along, and that line will be different for everyone. But if our girls have a strong model (that’s me and you), experience feeling powerful in their bodies with sports or dance, and are encouraged to openly share their thoughts and feelings, they’ll have a leg up on finding their own fine line.
I know you beautiful, thoughtful women (and men) have wisdom to share about this. How have you been touched by the nice-girl culture? How do you encourage your daughter to break free from the Curse of Nice?
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The most socially-adept people I know are able to get what they want by being nice. Nice doesn’t have to mean weak. Nice can also be assertive. I think it’s best to help our kids find the middle ground.
The attitude of “nice is stereotypical thus bad” is often associated with an unspoken suspicion that other people are more likely than not to try to take advantage of us, look down on us, whatever. The first thing we have to learn / teach is that our own feelings about ourselves are by the far the biggest determinant of how others will see us and treat us.
Given that, it is also important to realize that social adeptness and assertiveness are both in-born to an extent. We can counsel, we can model, but some of our kids are going to be insecure and hold in spite of it. I in no way blame my parents for the fact that I would rather crawl into a hole than correct someone’s mistake in my order - especially when I was younger. My mom wasn’t like that, frankly (though my dad was). I really don’t think there’s an insidious thread of stereotyping in today’s girls. Maybe 60 years ago, but not today. I think we can do more damage by over-compensating in this area.
SKL | September 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
SKL, I have to disagree with your assertion that we are beyond stereotyping our girls. There are still areas of the country (I happen to live in one) where being a woman means your ONLY goal in life is (or should be according to local culture) to find a husband and have children. It is often couched in flowery language, such as “this is a woman’s highest calling”, but what it amounts to is girls going to school with the sole intent to find a mate, having no independent interests, and having no ability to support themselves if anything ever does happen to their spouse. I’ve even had parents tell me their daughters didn’t need to go to college because they just needed to find a good man to provide for them. So, this is slightly apart from the teaching girls to be “nice” discussion, but stereotypes are alive and well.
One issue I think is related to the above post is that women are expected not to be assertive in the workplace. When we are politely assertive we are frequently labeled with less than flattering epithets. The work culture has in large part accommodated women by telling us to look pretty and stay quiet. Maybe this is not true in larger cities, but it seems to be the case in the rural area I currently live in.
LMJN | September 23rd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I think that you are both right because it depends on what part of the country that you live in. I have learned through my husband’s family, which lives in a completely different part of the country than mine, that there are different views of women depending on where you live. I grew up in an urban area in the NE and he grew up in a rural area in the middle of the US and all I can say is WOW. Two different planets when it comes to viewing women in society.
Oceans Mom | September 23rd, 2009 at 2:39 pm
In once aspect, it’s not so much the area of the country, but the “culture” you’re brought up in that ’stereotypes’, imho. For example, I grew up in the coalfields of Va., where quite literally there isn’t anything there for women except getting married and having kids. That’s pretty much the mountainese mentality, even now, for a lot of women. However, because my mom was a teacher, and even tho my dad only graduated 8th grade (but eventually got his GED), I was raised in a VERY female dominiate family structure that was very professional leaning. It was highly unusual for the area and for the times.
Now, my very best friend was born/raised in NJ, just on the other side of the river from NYC. Tho her mother taught, and her dad worked, she was expected to stay at home during college and help around the house, while her younger brother wasn’t expected to. Also, she wanted to go away to college, but her mom refused, saying that her brother needed more ’cause he had to support a family and she didn’t. They were a ‘good Italian’ family and everything, actually even now, was/is showered on the son, and not her. She’s the one, even now, who’s supposed to look after Mom cause the son has a family and he has to work. (As if my friend doesn’t? Add to the fact, she has 3 in college and is now a widow.)
So, one’s culture and background also comes into play here as well. Believe me, I had a high school government teacher tell me that the only reason for ME to go to college was to get my MRS degree. And out of 58 in my senior class, only 5 went to college (myself included) and none of us moved back to the area.
Jane | September 25th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I hit the send button too soon.
The one thing I’ve found, and that I’ve tried to teach my daughter, is that there’s “nice” and there’s ‘nice” One can be considerate and gracious, but still stand up for themselves and what they want/believe. There’s a time and place for taking a 2×4 up side somebody’s head to get the point across and IF it has to be done, then get OUT of my way. I’ll be gracious to a point, but the one thing I’ve learned is if you allow yourself to be a doormat, you WILL get walked on.
Jane | September 25th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Well, I think we are talking about two things here. I agree that there are some people in some places who see the role of women in a very “traditional” way. I recall that my HS math teacher once said that he didn’t understand why girls bothered to take higher math in HS (that was before he (a) realized I’d be his best student and (b) had a daughter of his own). But that never affected how I felt about my future, because my own parents didn’t talk like that. My mom was trying to convince me to be a lawyer long before I knew what a lawyer was. (She was a HS dropout, but she happened to work for a strong woman lawyer.)
But I don’t think that’s really what the blogger is talking about here. I grew up to be a lawyer, and a few other things besides. But I was still somewhat handicapped by the need to avoid rocking the boat in my interactions. Not just work interactions, but all interactions. The same would have been true had I opted to be a teacher or a housewife. And this wasn’t because I was “nice,” it was because I wasn’t socially confident. Which in turn was a combination of genetics and my dad’s very humble (and non-sexist) example.
I’ve lived in modern and traditional communities, and in both, the most successful women are those who know how to be pleasantly assertive. When I say “most successful,” I don’t mean those with the most glamorous careers or biggest paychecks. I mean those who consistently pursue and meet worthy goals, to their own satisfaction.
SKL | September 25th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
I would agree with you, SKL, to a point. You can, as we say, ‘kill’em with kindness’…and sometimes it’ll work, but often times, in a professional setting, the ‘nice’ girl routine just ain’t gonna get you anywhere. The ‘nice’ girl is accomodating and jovial; putting her needs behinds everyone else. That, in and of itself, aren’t bad traits; in fact, we should be them at times. At times, but NOT always. It’s like the old saying, “Nice guys finish last.” Sometimes, to get what we need, where we need to be, or even to do what we need for ourselves or our families, the ‘nice’ routine has to go out the door.
As the blogger stated, “what kind of women do we want our daughters to see when they look at us? Someone who sacrificed her feelings and dreams? Or someone who cares enough about herself and those around her to give herself what she needs?” We have to teach our daughters that, in the right time and place and circumstance, it’s OKAY NOT to be nice. And as you stated, ASSERTIVE.
Remember the old double standard - men = assertive, women = aggressive. By teaching our daughters, and our sons as well, that it’s OKAY for women to be ASSERTIVE, then we start to break that stereotype of the ‘nice’ girl that’s still holding on in areas even today. Once that goes by the way of the dinosaur, the better off women will be as a whole, imho.
Jane | September 26th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I know a few women who make it a point to be as direct as possible, who won’t ever try to soften what they are saying to protect the other person’s feelings, because they think that’s what “being assertive and getting things done” looks like. I see this more and more with young women, so it looks like they are trying to be “modern, strong women.” (Though I also see it in some more mature women.) Well, the fact is, nobody can stand to work with these people, including other women. The fact is, coldness and abrasiveness are not helpful except in extreme circumstances.
I don’t think anyone here is advising coldness and abrasiveness. We experienced women (or, at least most of us) can understand the line between assertiveness and abrasiveness. But young women and girls are not experienced enough. We have to be careful of the words we use with them. Telling our daughters that “being nice can hurt you” is the wrong message in my opinion.
SKL | September 26th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
“Telling our daughters that “being nice can hurt you” is the wrong message in my opinion”
And there is a difference between being “nice” and being nice. One deals with common everyday consideration, and the other means letting somebody run over you, imho. That’s the difference to teach. Common consideration and diplomacy without letting yourself be used as a doormat.
And that is the main thing we have to teach our daughters, imho.
I think that most of us who have kids who (especially during adolescense and the god-awful teenage years), don’t understand the difference between the 2. I know I had to teach my child that just because you CAN do something doesn’t always mean you should. Same thing with making comments. And believe me, as the blogger stated, girls especially, in groups, are a definite holy terror. And it’s gotten worse, not better, partly because, imho, parents haven’t taught the difference of what you can do/say v. what you should say/do. The same goes with nice (consideration) v. nice (doormat).
They look to us to teach them the difference, even if they mouth off that we don’t know their life or that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
Jane | September 26th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
It seems to me like both the blogger and some of the commenters are confusing “nice” with “respectful”. Yeah, I raised my hand - halfway. I am teaching our daughter that strangers lawns are not play areas for a myriad of reasons:
1. It’s rude to tromp all over someone’s lawn, particularly when it seems that they’ve put a lot of effort into it.
2. I don’t know what chemicals they’ve put down on their grass, how dog piss saturated it is or what lurks beneath the green that I’d prefer she not get on her hands or her shoes and then track into the foyer.
I do give up my spot in line sometimes - if I’m not in a major rush and the person behind me has 1 item compared to my 10. No one taught me that. It’s just the courteous thing to do. I don’t, however, bore holes in the back of their head. If one does something kind for someone, it should be done with kindness, not obilgation.
I don’t suck up a meal I didn’t order. I will send it back. I won’t call someone after 9 if I don’t know them because I know I hate it when people do that to me. I don’t converse with creepy strangers, period.
So why do these things make us “good girls”? Because we only do them as we think they’re expected of us? If that’s the case, I would say that speaks to a level of character in people I’d prefer not to think of.
But while I’ll teach my daughter some of the basics of being polite and courteous and respectful to others, I’m also going to (hopefully) teach her that what she wants is achievable, that sometimes, you have to call it exactly like it is, that there will be times in your life when you need to push others away and focus solely on yourself and that, most importantly…
Never allow others to mistake you kindness for weakness or your confidence for arrogance. Kindness and weakness, as is implied in this article, are not one and the same.
Phe | September 28th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Yes, Phe and Jane. I guess I am using the word “nice” in a different way than some. When I tell my daughters “be nice” or “that’s not nice,” I am advising them to be respectful, considerate, and compassionate. I certainly am not telling them to act like doormats.
If we teach our kids to be respectful and considerate, we are also teaching them that they deserve to be treated that way by others as well. If we give our kids logical consequences for being unpleasant, they will also learn how to respond effectively to unpleasant people. If, on the other hand, we fail to model consideration for others’ feelings, then they will ultimately be the ones hurting.
SKL | September 28th, 2009 at 8:56 am
A nice person that is assertive is the perfect combo but sometimes hard to achieve. My mom, actually, fits into the “nice” that I believe the article was relating to. I never saw her stand up to my dad or anyone else (including me) for that matter. My dad treats her so disrespectfully, in both me and my brother’s opinion, but she would rather not “rock the boat” so to speak. Luckily, I got my mom’s niceness but vowed from a small child not to inherit the doormat quality. In fact, to this day, my mom says that she wishes I was there to battle my dad for her when he’s being hard-headed because she can’t do it herself.
Oceans Mom | September 28th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I the post is about saying what you feel instead of just burying it deep inside, and I do believe that as a society, women are expected to do that more than men. Do you think there would be half as many posts about how to “handle people touching your pregnant belly” if men carried the babies? Hell, no. Because men would never let you near their pregnant stomach, because nice is only something you do if your not threatened.
And, yes it starts young. Boys who act out are “just boys beying boys” girls, well, they need to straighten up, grow up and yes, be nice.
I don’t have a girl, but if I ever do, I will certainly teach her to speak her mind. Nice or not, she will have a right to her opinion.
Brenda | September 28th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
SKL - I think you and I are on the same page. When I tell my daughter the same, I mean it in a way to teach respect, not to teach her to be a doormat. Hitting isn’t nice. Does that mean we should do it to “shed our bonds” as women or nice girls whenever the urge strikes us?
Brenda - I read something the other night that struck me…it was a statement on the very wealthy and particularly, old money aristocrats of England, but I think it applies here. It went, “They’re not mad (they’re eccentric). They’re not rude (they’re forthright and opinionated).”
Who says you can’t be nice or respectful without still being opinionated? And why should this teaching only apply to our daughters? Perhaps if more parents taught their kids the difference and the meaning of the words, “time and place”, we wouldn’t have such a self-centered culture as we do now.
And for the record, NO ONE touched my pregnant belly. But if one of my best male friends, J, were pregnant, I guarantee you he’d be belly-handled everywhere he went. You see, I know how to avoid having people touch me in unwanted ways. He, on the other hand, is a doormat and the world walks over him. He never learned to say “no”, to assert himself when necessary or to stand up for himself. In fact, if he had ovaries and a uterus, he would be the quintessential “nice girl”. At least, as it relates to this piece.
Phe | September 29th, 2009 at 5:13 am
YES! (I’ve been unable to submit comments for weeks, some weird glitch…)
Great comments, thanks.
I admit, I grew up thinking that “nice” meant “at my expense.” And that opinions weren’t welcome. A lot of you admit to not really having been touched by that culture of swallowing your own desires to meet some greater good, and I find that heartening. Are you and your daughters the future, or like SKL suggests, simply an alternative that was always present?
But I still think that girls especially are not encouraged ENOUGH to say what they think or to express emotions that seem socially unwelcome. What healthy models of females expressing anger in constructive ways so we have? I can’t think of one that’s not either sneaky and manipulative or over the top unrealistic. And if we don’t have them, our daughters don’t either.
Karen Murphy | September 30th, 2009 at 6:33 pm