Parenting Without a Manual
with Talyaa Liera
I'm Talyaa, the poster child for the concept that there's no one right way to be a parent. I went from stay-at-home attachment-parenting mom of four to being the non-custodial parent, working as a professional writer and channel-psychic. Let's talk about throwing away the parenting manual and exploding the myths and mystique of motherhood!
Check out my personal blog at Juxtapositioning.
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I’m tired of all the ways we guilt ourselves as parents. Kids misbehave? Our fault. Bad grades? Our fault. We don’t spend enough time with our kids. Guilt! We don’t protect our kids well enough. Guilt! I, for one, am done with the guilt.
The latest thing? Yelling. The New York Times has over 300 comments on a post about the horrors of yelling at our kids, how guilty we feel about it, and how to make it all go away.
Don’t worry, I’m as guilty of yelling as anyone else. I have done it and no, I’m not proud of it either. I’ve gotten frustrated and angry and I’ve raised my voice. More than once. News flash — parents are human. We get frustrated. We yell sometimes.
Sure, there are alternatives. I’ve tried them. And I can say first hand that strategies like reminding, nagging, and counting 1-2-3 don’t work. Apparently, for my kids, yelling does. It startles them out of their constant reverie, the glazed-eye tune-out mode (you know what I’m talking about — kids really do hear wah-wah-wah when adults talk, just like in the Charlie Brown cartoons).
Now, as Lylah Alphonse (The 36-Hour Day) pointed out in her piece over at Boston.com, the New York Times piece doesn’t make a distinction between yelling, “You’re a terrible kid! You’re stupid!” and plain-ol’ yelling that comes from frustration and a desire to get the kid’s attention. That’s the kind of yelling that went on all day at my next-door neighbor’s house growing up, the ones I referred to as The Loud Family. Some people are just loud.
So I’ll be clear — yelling things that are hurtful, denigrating, or demeaning, that’s not okay. But yelling? In and of itself? Is that the same as spanking?
We’ve lost touch with our own sense of what’s right and what’s not for our kids, and instead we scour books, TV shows, and one another’s brains, looking for the expert to tell us how to be a good parent. I know all about this — when I was pregnant with my first child at the tender age of 20 I assumed I knew nothing and turned to Penelope Leach (Your Baby and Child) for answers. Twelve years later, doing it all over again, I threw the book away. You know how that goes.
So why the guilt? Why not just yell a little, be okay with it, and life goes on? No harm, no foul. Sure, I’d like to find other ways of expressing my frustration or anger than yelling. But that’s because I’m not yet 100% comfortable with those feelings in myself, let alone showing those “imperfect” feelings to my kids. But I also know that I’m headed for a world where I feel okay with my emotions (even the messy ones) and where I feel completely comfortable showing my kids everything that I am — which means letting go of the image of “perfect mom” I’ve been holding on to. And the more okay I am with everything that I am (and everything that I am not) the better a model I make for my kids.
So, with my permission (not that you needed it), yell away. With the following caveats:
1. No shame, no game. If you feel guilty about the yelling, your kids will feel it too. Which sends a mixed message. Gonna yell? Fine. Just do it loud and proud.
2. No playing dirty. I meant it when I said that words like “You’re stupid” aren’t cool. They’re not.
3. Keep it light. Play with this a little. I love the comment to Lylah’s post, which said (in part, and please go read the whole thing: I yell “I LOVE YOU” when I am leaving, I yell “OK, NOW I AM REALLY LEAVING”. Which has “playful” written all over it.
So what about you? Are you a yeller? Hanging on to any guilt about it? How do you feel about the whole yelling thing?
[photo credit: fireyes, SXC]
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I do yell, and I really hate it. Especially since my younger daughter acts scared when I do it. But, the same daughter NEVER listens to my normal voice. She HEARS it but takes no notice. Believe me, I have spent many hours trying “civilized” approaches to motivate my kids’ appropriate responses to my reasonable requests. They don’t work (for DD#2), at least not at this age.
Every time I yell, I talk to my kids about how I don’t want to yell and I wouldn’t do it if they would just listen to me. This doesn’t modify their behavior, but at least they don’t think I yell for sport. Now I’m warning them in advance: do you want me to raise my voice? Because if you don’t do what I say, I am going to have to raise my voice.” Amazingly, this works.
I don’t know how yelling compares with spanking, but I use both when the occasion calls for it in my opinion. So I am not about to lose any sleep about the HORRIBLE thought that my kids might be as messed up as spanked kids if I yell. A spank on the butt is a predictable, finite event which hasn’t killed any kid yet. A yell - well, there’s a reason why they do all that screaming in horror movies and haunted houses . . . .
SKL | October 28th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Yes I’m a yeller and yes I feel terrible when I yell and yes I regularly revisit my yelling after I’ve settled down, make my point calmly, and apologize for flying off the handle. And no, I never say anything insulting, ever.
feefifoto | October 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I understand the whole yelling mean things, that is just not acceptable. However, did they make a distinction between the types of yelling? This I would like to know. Some people yell very loudly and very “in-your-face” and some just speak very stongly to impact their point, which would also be considered yelling. I did have an ex-boyfriend whose father yelled at him at the top of his lungs pretty much any time he opened his mouth and I can see how this would negatively impact a child but I think that the yelling has to somehow be measured in some degree.
Oceans Mom | October 28th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
So glad you wrote this. I was told by my angry neighbor of a very tough to deal with 4 year old girl that I was “too harsh” with her girl. Her girl has a wonderful knack of pushing every one of my buttons and she’s at my house all the time. I’m good for months on end then…she busts me in a bad moment. I didn’t yell loud, but spoke loudly and firmly to go home after she yelled at me two times while I was on an important phone call. Her mom saw me in the doorway telling her to go home. I walked away and threw the door closed at the same time. I wasn’t meaning harm, but my baby was now crying and my girl was asking why her friend had to go home all while on the phone! How do you not yell? And now I have a neighbor angry with me? It’s my house and I’ll sometimes yell if I want to! Like you said, it’s more like a teapot on boil, not actually there to hurt anyone. Thanks again!
TLyn | October 28th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
SKL and feelfitfoto, I like your approach of explaining how you feel when you yell. I think that’s important and helps kids understand the whole dynamic. I forgot to mention (and this is important) how any method of “discipline” is totally balanced by whatever else you do, which includes all the loving, nurturing times.
Ocean’s Mom, no I don’t think they made distinctions among different types of yelling. Plus, one kid is going to react differently from another to the same thing. I think each parent has to do what they think best — the best way they can, anyhow — and tailor what they do to each child and each situation. More guilt? Probably. :-/
TLyn, I’ve noticed that people are blaming of others about things in themselves that they’re uncomfortable with. Likely she saw herself in your interaction with her daughter and didn’t like what she saw in herself then.
Karen Murphy | October 28th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Hm. That depends. My ex will tell you that, if we were fighting and I was yelling, he knew that resolution loomed and really, I wasn’t all that pissed. It was when I got quiet, cold and calculating that he and the dog would usually try to beat each other out for a spot in the crate. That was when I was really, really angry and that anger would burn white hot. The bonfire of yelling was easy to deal with, but the white hot welder’s flame meant someone had seriously effed up and it would take a lot to get me to come back around.
Because that white hot anger happens so rarely, M can’t attest to it as he’s never seen it.
So. Do I yell? In the few fights M and I have had, yep, I yelled. (That was a good thing - he just doesn’t know it). Do I yell at Amelie? Nnnnooo, not as such. I narrow my eyes, I call her by her first and middle name and my tone is probably more menacing than I’d like it to be - sort of a non-angry variant on what happens when I do get well and truly angry…but I don’t yell.
I was raised in a house where yelling and spanking were combined. And I will tell you, I still would take spanking over angry yelling any day. The yelling had long lasting effects that the spanking never did. The punitive parent used the same approach to yelling that SKL did and, for me at least, that made it worse because it made me feel somehow defective and like everything was my fault…even though at age 2 or 3, a lot of what we got punished for was typical 2 and 3 year old behavior so I was never sure why I was getting yelled at in such an angry way.
Now, Amelie’s pushing every limit (and nerve) lately. This morning, she threw her milk cup. I told her to pick it up, she didn’t. She laid on the floor instead. I told her to pick it up or she would go back in her crib. She shifted position on the floor. So, I picked her up and put her back in her crib. She started in with her fake cry (it’s so pathetic it’s funny, I just can’t let her see me laugh) and I let her go for about one minute (I never left the room, just let her go on with her tantrum). I got her out and said, “Now are you going to pick up the cup?” She ran, didn’t walk, and picked it up and handed it to me and said, “‘nk oo” when I took it.
Yelling wouldn’t work with her - I know that. It would just make her dig in (I’ve watched it happen when her father’s lost his patience and raised his voice), but simple consequences do. I stayed with her in her room while she was in the crib, but that was enough.
I’m sure I’ll lose it when she’s older, but there’s a part of me that just reminds myself that this is totally normal for her age and she’ll learn her boundaries just fine without me yelling or spanking as long as they’re simple lessons with direct action.
I yell at the cats though. They’re horrible little beasts. ; )
Phe | October 29th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Phe, I inderstand where you are coming from. When my kids were under 2, in the rare case that I yelled at them, I knew it was really about me overreacting - usually due to circumstances having little to do with my kids. That goes into the “sorry for being human” category (single moms with 2 tots have fewer outlets than many), and because it was a rare occurrance, I don’t think my kids are any the worse for wear.
But now the kids are 3-ish, and frankly, they are culpable when they choose not to do as I ask. So I do not feel it is wrong to blame them when it is their own behavior that forces me to raise my voice. (When we’re in a hurry, I can’t wait around for them to realize the error of their ways, so raising my voice is one of few effective choices at that point.)
I don’t agree with the philosophy that we must never let our children feel culpable, responsible, guilty, whatever, for the trouble that they cause. I know my daughters are fully capable of understanding that their actions have consequences. If they think they don’t have to bear the brunt of / blame for the consequences, then I feel they will fail to develop the responsibility they are capable of. My personal parenting philosophy is that kids will experience life to the fullest only if they are fully aware of and responsible for their role in it.
You may come to relate to my view when your daughter is older. I surely didn’t plan on the whole yelling business when my kids were younger.
SKL | October 29th, 2009 at 9:25 am
SKL - As I noted in my original comment, I’m sure I’ll yell when she’s older (I was thinking MUCH older though…so I’ll cross my fingers on that count). And even at 18 months, she does have a small measure of responsibility as I tried to outline in my anecdote about this morning.
I was not deriding you for yelling - but your approach did bring back some early childhood memories that were similar. I totally commend you for being a single mother and raising two daughters that close in age…and I understand that sometimes, people just gotta yell. : )
Who knows…maybe the threatening overtones I use or the idea that I follow through with warnings like I did this morning (i.e. do it or this happens; child doesn do it; this happens) will be held up as the next Model of How Not to be a Parent.
What I do know is that usually the talking heads who spear these research studies are ones with either no children of their own or ones whose children are so ill behaved, spanking suddenly doesn’t seem so bad at all.
Phe | October 29th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I am very much a yeller and no I don’t have any guilt about it! My daughter doesn’t respond well to 123, and my son well he has learned to count with me. So I yell to get their attention and to make sure they know…Mom means business. However, its not cool to yell vulgar obscenities to your children. Its just not right! But my kids have a really bad habit of staring into space with I am scolding them and only respond when I yell at them. For some people this works for others its just a waste of time. Let me be honest…time out doesn’t work well for my kids. And if I put them in time out for not cleaning their room…well its just a whole another 10 minutes where they are not cleaning their room…when I am in a rush TIME OUT does not work. So I yell and they know I mean business. They get spanked, because lets face some children need a spank on the butt to remember who is boss…but spanking and yelling at the same time is just cruel.
So yes, I am yeller and proud of it…
Shay | October 29th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Phe,
I use the same thing that you do on my son - the whole crib thing except I make him stand in the naughty corner. I think your daughter is younger than my son so it actually gets even easier. I now just ask him to do something and if he says no I ask him is he wants to go to the naughty corner and he says “no” and then does what I asked him to do. No fighting, nothing - well, okay, its a rareity now but he does fight me on rare occasions. But I hardly have to actually put him there anymore. I think your daughter will be the same. I don’t know what I’ll do when he gets older, I’m hoping that by that time he’ll just keep doing what he finally started doing now, which is listen.
Oceans Mom | October 29th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
You try 1-2-3, you try time out, but sometimes, it is worth it to them; you see the gleam in their eyese as they actively do exactly what you told them not to. Then the sharp voice or yell is effective.
I find it more effective the less I use it. My child is fairly sensitive, so a well placed first/middle name in the “I’m so disappointed” voice usually does the trick. But some days no. And very, very rarely, the spanking.
I could count on one hand the number of times she’s be spanked; but let me say, none of those actions has EVER been repeated. Probably because it has been so rare she knows whatever caused that she had better not do again.
Mich | October 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Mich, you have a good point, too. Anything that you do too much loses effectiveness. If you do something drastic but not very often any child will take it more seriously.
Oceans Mom | October 30th, 2009 at 7:18 am
*sigh* i am posting this even though i know you all are probably going to think i am CRAZY
I think it depends on the kid and whatever works! My son is 3 and a half and generally easy going and chill and responds to reasoning better than my husband
The few times he has been uncooperative it has taken me by surprise, more than anything, so i tend to notice. Usually he just doesn’t fully understand what is being asked of him or he is asking for some control in the situation. In which case i explain and give him concrete choices “do you want A or B, those are your choices”. Even when he is too tired and just breaks down and cries/refuses i try to always remember to ask what emotion he is feeling, validate it or help him understand and/or give him a better way of dealing with the emotion or situation, and then state whatever it is i needed him to do again. 99.9% of the time he then does what i ask. He just needed to understand what his feelings were and that it was ok to have them.
i know this sounds all wooowooo and you are probably laughing, it’s ok
My husband just shakes his head at me 
(though it works on him too, LOL)
Kate | November 3rd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Hello. My name is bev, and I’m a yeller. I never yell things that are mean or demeaning, but I have yelled to snap him out of something. Or to get his attention after calling his name a million times (yes I counted!).
I do find that sometimes I feel guilty, especially since I watch super nanny reruns for 2 hours every night. But I also know that I’m not constantly yelling and if I yell to get his attention, I then will return to my normal voice to say what it is I have to say. I ask him not to yell, so I try myself to keep the yelling to a minimum.
bev | November 4th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Well first I love your comments about guilt — you are very right on and I have felt a lion’s share of guilt over the years. I hate the society has brought that upon moms. I don’t think my mom felt the guilt that I do. So while I do yell from time to time, I actually have whats called the “demon voice” which really isn’t a yell - more of a loud growl, which is sometimes is accompanied by red pupils (oh probably not, but it FEELS that way). This tactic is only used rarely in an evening of a long day of repeating myself and not-so nice behavior. Typically my kids will snap to attention at that point and know that they’ve reached the end of mommy’s patience. I have joked about this with friends and have had some good laughs because apparently this is more widely used than I realized. I think yelling mean things is horrible and should not be tolerated. But yes, I think our kids need to voice change every now and again to get back on track.
Karen | November 4th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I am a sometimes WTF yeller because I dont get when there is a daily routine and my 6 yr od and 15 yr old dont know what to do next. I agree name calling and such is not ok but WTF
fabiola | November 5th, 2009 at 9:41 am
I yell when I need to make an authoritarian statement as to Mommy is in charge and there will be no dissention tolerated. Never any demeaning comments (a la the “you’re stupid”); it is always stuff that I am already saying and for some reason my usually dutiful well-behaved daughter is just not getting it and it always does the job. I don’t use it often as I don’t want it to lose it’s power - being in baseball mode right now, I would refer to it as my out pitch. And, with rare exception a behavior that has sparked a yell never gets repeated.
Diane Feirman | November 5th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Oops, forgot to add about the comparison with spanking. I don’t believe in spanking at all, so obviously I think it is worse (I don’t believe in teaching that hitting as a resolution is productive) however, I think yelling can be detrimental if it is used too much. I don’t think it is productive to teach kids that the best and only way to get a point across or to respond to something they don’t like is to yell - and when I do yell, when it is done I am clear why I had to yell. I am not trying to wimp out but rather teach my daughters good communication and conflict resolution skills.
Diane Feirman | November 5th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Just one more clarification to add as to my explaining why I had to yell. The vast majority of the time this explanation focuses on her action that precipitated the yelling (not her, her action). I make it clear that I yelled because she did (or didn’t do) this or that and that is unacceptable. However, from time to time, I will do a yell that upon release it is clear that it is more me than her (a bad day/moment) and if that is the case, then I will take a mea culpa for overreacting (I also want her to learn that sometimes it is okay to say “you know what, my bad”)
Diane Feirman | November 5th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Great blog post. I was suprised when I heard about the article on yelling being just as bad as spanking. You are right that some things don’t work. I will never forget the first time I am like “you have until I count to three 1, 2, 3…” my five year old is all “I can teach you to count higher later if you want!”
I don’t like to yell, but I do it. I also agree about how there is a difference between yelling demeaning stuff and the others. We have a little alley way beside our home and the other day when we went out front to get the mail my daughter started running and I don’t know if she didn’t hear me or what but I swear i didn’t think she was going to stop (road right ahead). I don’t think I have ever screamed so loud in my life but if it came down to yelling or her getting hit by a car you bet I am going to raise the voice.
Jennifer | November 5th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
It Depends , because if you are the kind of mom that is always yelling
or spanking your children they are going to ignor you . It comes to a point were they take it as a joke. We need to talk more to our kids and be firm with them and let them know that if they do something wrong they are consequences.
Omayra Crespo | November 5th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Well, I am thrilled to see this post, but I have an interesting twist to add to the mix. Recently, my child was “ignoring” an adult that he did not know. I wasn’t present and am frustrated with this guilt, as well, but I digress.
Anyway, our children attend religion classes at the local church. A mass was given in lieu of a class and the children were dismissed earlier than usual, so were left to wait around. Needless to say, my child got up to a bit of mischief and was being reprimanded by an adult that the children did not know. Apparently, the witness say that there was yelling and finger pointing involved.
I reserve the right to yell at my children, but do not tolerate strange adults yelling at my children. The only occasion that I feel that this would be acceptable would be if there is a risk of injury, to my child or someone else’s. Otherwise, it’s completely inappropriate.
Am I alone in this?
Janice | November 5th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Do you know that show 18 kids and counting - where the mother says she never yells at her kids - how is that possible. I have one and he’s only three so its a little easier not to - not as much chaos. I agree though sometimes its necessary to get their attention - like if you come out of the bathroom and in just a few minutes they are just about to get hurt because they are close to doing something they shouldn’t like touching the stove and such - can’t think of anything right now - but I know there are things!
amy | November 5th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
I had an aunt who never yelled at her children, they were spoiled mean-spirited children - these cousins made my life hell - but they became marvelous, happy, healthy and well-adjusted adults. Probably this is not coincidence. Her mom, my grandma, was somewhat more than a yeller, so maybe the whole branch of that family is some whacked out anomaly.
Anyway, I’m a yeller, but not out of nowhere. Usually about the third time I’ve repeated a request is when yelling ensues. My child knows that when I’m at this point it is because modularity has failed. Sometimes I yell blue streaks - a bad habit picked up from the military - it’s rarely aimed at anything (mostly pain).
Sarah | November 25th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
I am very bad about yelling at my kids…especially my 4yr old. She is “bad”! I mean it and she works your nerves too….I have tried my best to talk to her, explain to her, plead with her about her whining and crying when she can’t get her way…about her rudeness, selfishness and meanness (literally, she will pinch, hit and slap for no reason, under no provoking) to no avail. I love her to DEATH, God knows I do but sometimes she just works my nerves and I lose it! The worse thing is I curse when I am doing it…then I hate myself after the fact, I feel like a total loser and a bad mom. Did I mention I am Bipolar? I take meds for it but don’t think they are helping too much….I don’t know. I just wish I could just wake up one day and be June Cleaver. I love my babies and would never do anything intentionally to hurt them. I am currently in parenting classes and it has helped some but not a whole lot….I just want to be the best mom in the world!
Worst Parent in the world | January 29th, 2010 at 9:41 pm
I understand every mom’s guilt. I feel the same way. I do not spank and never yell since my daughter is just 2 yrs and 8 month old only. But yesterday morning, I work at night so I always not feeling well when i get home. Here’s my baby coming to me and invited me to play. Of course
at first I was able to share my time enthusiastically but when she suddenly change her mood.. I yell “BABY!” “STOP IT!” “I’M GETTING ANGRY” then she acted like she is like 18yrs old she went to her our room, sat down on the bed, cover her teary eyes, and said “mommy please don’t get mad..”then cry..That was the first time I yelled at her.. I felt so guilty about it..so I talked to her like I’m talking to a grown up little miss. I explain in a calm way everything then she said “sorry mommy” “i love u..” believe or not mixed emotion that my daughter seems like realized her mistakes at a very young age and learned how to say sorry. I’m proud and I’m lucky to have a very loving child.
Then I realized even a toddler could understand you as long as you send the message that there must something to understand. Without explaining to them it will end up guilt to us.. we parents are responsible to teach our children the righteousness in life.. over and over again.. eventually when they get married we might regret hoping that “If I can turn back the times when they were young..” “I will take all the opportunity to play, talk and be with them..as long as I live..”
sammish | March 25th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
I just went berserk and yelled at my six year old. I feel like hell about it.
I have a headache today. His Dad was supposed to take him out, but the time-outs for interupting and hitting (?*!!#!!) were getting old and delaying their exit. He must have had about 7 of them this morning!. I am thinking that I don’t like being a yeller, yet I do it a lot lately.
It seems that the more I tell my kid what I need of him or don’t like the more likely he is to use those things to push my buttons! And he does- over and over and over with the exact same behaviors . Something isn’t working here. I’m tired and under stress of a sick relative and unemployment. You don’t have to tell me that my husband might have taken over, but that’s another issue. I began to confiscate toys when they finally left, but I just felt angry and like it would be the same fruitless power struggle. Rather than taking his toys away for misbehavior, I am thinking of taking them away whenever I have to yell. Would that be out of line?
Andi | August 20th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Something that started working better for me than yelling was actually the opposite. When I would yell it would make the situation worse as my son would do it more. I still yell sometimes if im tired or not feeling well but what works the best is if i stay extra super calm while taking away his toy, putting him in time out, taking away the tv, etc. It seems to shock him more when I am so calm and he’ll look at me with huge eyes and just cry and then say he’s sorry. I still dont let him play with the toy for the rest of the night (ir whatever) but the whole episode tends to last a much shorter time and he listens better. This is a hard one tho cause it requires a ton of patience so its not always possible buy I’m getting better at it.
Oceans Mom | August 21st, 2010 at 12:08 pm